Robertson redux?
Folks, this according to the Moscow Times:
Russian Orthodox Patriarch Kirill said crime, drugs and corruption caused last week's massive earthquake that killed tens of thousands of people in Haiti.
Kirill, speaking during a weekend visit to Kazakhstan, said the Haitian people bore responsibility for the calamity because they had turned away from God, the Ferghana.ru news agency reported late Monday.
"Haiti is a country of poverty and crime, famine, drugs and corruption, where people have lost their moral face," Kirill was quoted as saying.
He compared Haiti with the Dominican Republic, which are located on the same Caribbean island.
"I've visited the island divided between two countries, the Dominican Republic and Haiti. One of them is developing, while the other is affected by crimes, economic recession and political unrest. That part of the island was shattered by the earthquake," he said.
The patriarch also compared Haiti with Kazakhstan, noting that Kazakhstan has not experienced any earthquakes recently despite its seismological position, the news report said.
Asked to clarify Kirill's comments, a church spokesman said Tuesday that the news report had "misinterpreted" the patriarch's words and "taken them out of context." The spokesman, Alexander Volkov, could not immediately clarify, saying only that a transcript of the speech would appear "later" on the Moscow Patriarchate's web site.
A church scholar said Kirill's comments had astonished his foreign listeners in Almaty, but they were quite ordinary to the Orthodox faithful.
"For those who often listen to Patriarch Kirill, such statements seem quite ordinary, but I know that some people in Almaty were amazed," said the scholar, Alexander Soldatov, editor of the religious web site Portal-Credo.ru.
Kirill is known for his statements about large-scale disasters. Last year, he blamed the global financial crisis on the spiritual degradation of the world and called it a trial.
On Friday, the patriarch expressed his condolences to the Haitian president in a statement published on the Moscow Patriarchate's web site.
Kirill isn't the first religious leader to raise eyebrows over remarks about the magnitute-7 earthquake that destroyed the Haitian capital, Port-au-Prince, last Tuesday.
U.S. television evangelist Pat Robertson said last week that Haiti has been "cursed" because of what he called a "pact with the devil" in its history.
U.S. President Barack Obama's administration, which is overseeing massive relief efforts in Haiti, denounced Robertson's statement. "It never ceases to amaze me that in times of amazing human suffering somebody says something that can be so utterly stupid," White House spokesman Robert Gibbs told reporters.
Repeated calls to the Kremlin's press office for comment about Kirill's comments went unanswered Tuesday.
President Dmitry Medvedev has sent a rescue team and humanitarian supplies on four cargo jets to Haiti.
Commentary. Folks, let’s talk theodicy.
I buy His All-Holiness Patriarch Kirill’s argument when he blamed the global financial crisis “on the spiritual degradation of the world”. I have no quarrel with that, I have said so myself. Man-made disasters are almost always due to moral turpitude of one kind or another. However, as in Robertson’s comments, I fail to see a direct cause-and-effect relationship between earthquakes or other natural disasters and moral turpitude.
Look, Robertson and His All-Holiness are not alone in making these connections. After Katrina, I remember a Larry King Show in CNN in which he interviewed the Dalai Lama and a Christian preacher, I don’t remember who. But I remember the words of the Dalai Lama distinctly: he launched into a lecture of on the nature and meaning of karma and basically stated that the effects of hurricane Katrina were a consequence of New Orleans' accumulated. aggregate, collective karma. The hurricane and its accompanying disaster was simply nature’s blind, inexorable way to even the moral scale.
The Dalai Lama got away with this because he’s a media darling, he’s “one of them” and his words hardly created any waves, although he basically meant that New Orleans had it coming.
Then we had Pat Robertson and the media frenzy he caused after Haiti. He’s the media whipping boy anyway, so the reaction shouldn’t have surprise us. And now, we get the head of the world’s largest national Orthodox Church pretty much saying the same thing but this time geopolitical considerations may mute any reaction except from angry atheists who are always angry anyway, so they can be easily dismissed.
The issue for the Christian is one of theodicy, of God’s execution of his judgment in the world. I question any notion that God would smite down entire populations by means of natural disasters in order to prove his character, vent his anger. and demand abject obedience. I mean, if God were interested in killing entire populations in order to prove His point – whatever that is – He has more efficient ways at his disposal: He can reduce, in an instant, any miscreant, from the devil onward, to nonbeing, without going around the game table of destruction, mayhem, suffering, and death even once, as if he were some sort of sadist delighting in what He was wrought.
This view of God is not Christian.
God allows evil so that good may emerge from it: he has endowed His creation with freedom to proceed according to its own natural laws and plate tectonics is just such a dynamic manifold of interdependent geophysical processes that frequently results in earthquakes. God then intervenes through us, through our rendering of assistance, and healing; through the renaissance of the Haitian people’s determination to survive, persist, and move forth, and heal their culture and to contribute to the world. In the measure that we fail to assist, heal, and minister, God “fails” through us.
One more thing: God assumed the punishment of our sins by taking them on himself, in the Person of His Son. God knows what is to struggle to survive under the heavy weight of a wooden beam, despite preceding grievous bodily trauma. He’s being there, He’s done that. God has already suffered for the sins of the Haitian people and to say this earthquake is further punishment for their sins makes a mockery of the Cross.
What happened in Haiti is giving us an opportunity to become God’s hands to others. Let’s concentrate upon doing that and stop presuming that we know how, when, and whom God punishes. This presumption serves one’s ego and feeds the passions, but communicates no real religious knowledge. Those who entertain them will have to answer to Him, whether they are Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, or even Tibetan Buddhists.
- Hat tip to Get Religion for the heads up.










7 comments:
"I mean, if God were interested in killing entire populations in order to prove His point – whatever that is – He has more efficient ways at his disposal..." Several times in Sacred Scripture God destroys entire populations to prove His point; think of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, the rebellion against Moses, the Babylonian exile, the Exodus and the Egyptians, etc. etc. The reason is that the people of a nation are interconnected, and God can punish a nation if He so pleases (I'm not saying that's what happened in Haiti, but He can do so).
"In the measure that we fail to assist, heal, and minister, God “fails” through us." What a bizarre statement! God can never fail, no matter what WE do. He has no obligation to heal anybody from natural disasters, because sometimes he sends us suffering for our own benefit. So if Haiti is not healed, the fault can never be pinned on God, only on us.
"God assumed the punishment of our sins by taking them on himself..." Clearly Calvinist penal substitution, not Catholic truth. God died for us, but He was not punished for us.
"God has already suffered for the sins of the Haitian people and to say this earthquake is further punishment for their sins makes a mockery of the Cross." A heretical conclusion which follows from the heretical premise of penal substitution. The Catholic Church teaches that God can still punish us with temporal penalties, although the eternal penalties have been cancelled for those who accept Christ's atonement for them. Otherwise indulgences make no sense. "The Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son" (Hebrews 12). God can still punish anyone today who sins.
I do agree with the central premise of the article.
Thank you for your comments, Ben G.
You raise a couple of good points which I think, would force me to review a couple of details on what I wrote, but not the "full thrust" of my post, I'm afraid.
"In the measure that we fail to assist, heal, and minister, God “fails” through us." What a bizarre statement! God can never fail, no matter what WE do. He has no obligation to heal anybody from natural disasters, because sometimes he sends us suffering for our own benefit. So if Haiti is not healed, the fault can never be pinned on God, only on us.
Metaphysically, God is "wholly Other" and He can't be touched or blamed or whatever, you know, but that line of reasoning risks making God an abstraction.
The truth as I see it is that God called us to be his partners in redemption and that His Name and even honor is entangled with that work of redemption of which he has condescended to make us partners. To the world, God heals in the measure that we, the Body of His Son, heal others and fail in the measure we fail. That's why is so important for us not to fail. Bizarre? Perhaps, but no less real.
"God has already suffered for the sins of the Haitian people and to say this earthquake is further punishment for their sins makes a mockery of the Cross." A heretical conclusion which follows from the heretical premise of penal substitution
Really? I don't think so. It's the simple application of Isaiah 53:
5 But he was wounded for our iniquities, he was bruised for our sins: the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and by his bruises we are healed.(Douay-Rheims)
Unless you're saying that Isaiah was a Proto-Calvinist heretic, you need to deal with what the prophet expected the Messiah to be, and do.
Much later on, St. Peter repeated the same passage on his second letter. It seems to have a particular relevance for us Catholics, you see.
Bishop Guy Poulard of Les Cayes, Haiti, vehemently denied that the earthquake was "divine punishment". He's a successor to the apostles, so he speaks with some authority.
Mr. Carl Anderson, Supreme Knight of the Knight of Columbus, stated something very similar to what I was trying to say.
When the Holy Father Benedict XVI states that the earthquake in Haiti was, or could have been, divine punishment exacted upon the Haitian people, and explains why with his usual theological rigor and clarity, trust me, I will surrender my opinion to that of the Successor of St. Peter.
In the meantime, if I'm to err, I will err on the side of God's mercy.
-Theo
Dear Theo,
In posting that comment I had no intention to say that Haiti was being punished by God, because I don’t believe that, owing to the fact that, unlike Padre Pio, God doesn’t let me sometimes look over his shoulder at his notebook. I don’t presume to no what God thinks of Haiti. :-)
I only wanted to point out some theological problems in the original post. As I said, I agree with the central point of the post.
You write: “God called us to be his partners in redemption and that His Name and even honor is entangled with that work of redemption of which he has condescended to make us partners. To the world, God heals in the measure that we, the Body of His Son, heal others and fail in the measure we fail. That's why is so important for us not to fail.”
Of course we are God’s partners in redemption. But, as the theologians say, we are bound by the Sacraments, but God isn’t. God works redemption through His earthly Body, but he isn’t bound to relieve people solely by means of His followers. He is omnipotent, and can heal and cut down as much or as little as he likes. You say that God fails when we fail, which entails a radical dependence of the divine on His creatures, when, in truth, God can never fail. His infinite perfection demands that we believe this. If what you said above is true, it would follow that because Pope Alexander VI had numerous mistresses and committed fornication several times, that God failed in directing His people with a good moral example. Humans can fail, individual members of the Church can fail, but God can never fail.
Penal substitution is a Protestant doctrine of the atonement. “Penal substitution, simply put, is the theory that Christ was punished on the Cross with the punishment with which we deserved to be punished.” Catholics cannot believe that Christ was punished with what we deserved to be punished, as you stated: “God assumed the punishment of our sins…” The punishment of our sins is both temporal death and eternal death (hell), and Christ never spent an eternity in hell. Calvinists believe he was forsaken and separated from God on the cross, which was the equivalent of eternal hell, and thus we can receive forgiveness. Catholics believe that Christ died as a substitute for us, on our behalf, but he was not a penal substitute for us. His perfect sacrifice appeased the wrath of God and made Him propitious to us, but God’s wrath was not poured out on Christ (penal substitution).
You quote Isaiah 53 as teaching that Christ was given our punishment. All I can see is that Christ’s sufferings and death bring us peace and healing, and atone for our sins.
St. Anselm teaches that what is due to God is honour and worship, and that sin constitutes a withdrawal and abnegation of these dues, and actual insult to the honour due to God. Since no matter how much honour and love and service we offer God (after we turn from sin) can cancel the demerits which our sin has caused, they must be repaid in superabundance by perfect obedience, which obviously Christ did on our behalf as our substitutes. Anselm says in the Cur Deus Homo, "The honour taken away must be repaid, or punishment must follow". Clearly he says that Christ’s atonement repaid our debt, but the punishment which we deserved (eternal hell) was not enacted on Christ, it was propitiated by perfect obedience.
We must believe that Christ thus removed the eternal penalties of our sins, but we still must repay our own temporal penalties, otherwise the Church would never offer us indulgences to remove the temporal penalties of our sins. That’s why Protestants think indulgences are so blasphemous: they entail that Christ did not atone for the temporal consequences of sin.
God bless,
Ben.
Thank you Ben G for your reply and for still sticking with me on the point that no one can pressume to know what's God's will in this matter.
Obviously, I'm not going to argue with settled Catholic doctrine on the matter of temporal punishment for sin, much less take on St. Anselm on this matter, even less take a Calvinistic approach. That was certainly not my intention.
Ergo,I have failed to verbalize the mystery correctly in a manner that does justice to the full teaching of the Church in this matter and in order to avoid giving scandal and misleading people I will stop talking about the specific subject of "punishment" until the Lord gives me more intelligence on the matter.
Thank you for your patience.
-Theo
Theo,
God bless you and yours.
Theo,
God bless you and yours.
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